I will reply with the first thought in my head after I read this...

A-FREAKIN-MEN!!!!

P.S. I'm glad I read your crazy long blog this time ;-)

100% agreement, pally boy! My emotional response, however is quite different. Your passion displays sarcasm, incredulity, and perhaps anger (and "Yes," I know there are plenty of other emotions stirring in you). I am led to sadness and grief and compassion. Those are MY people. They are people I love. I KNOW them! Yes, there are a few who are genuinely ungodly in their thoughts and behaviors, but many are honestly trying to please God. Speaking of assumptions, we are talking about entire generations of people who, in their passion to bring God pleasure, have ASSUMED that the way we behave needs to be specified in Scripture, so if the Bible doesn't say "you're free to shake your maracas," then maracas might not please Christ and should not be shaken.
And there's pride involved here! That is, when the Christian Churches and the Churches of Christ split, it sounds too trite and shallow to say, "This is the North and South split of the American Civil War. The South can't even afford pianos! How dare the North introduce something that isn't even an option to us? It MUST be wrong!" And so an entire hermenutic is fished from Scripture. And when any issue is one on which good-meaning folks can say, "This is the battleline on which I am willing to die. This cause is worthy enough for me to stake my life," then assumptions are made and lines are drawn. And so the war rages. And so people still die. And so I am sad.
Finally, a word about passion: it is commonly the front-door key to pride. One of my greatest joys at the Renovatus Church of Christ has been to watch the swelling passion of using musical instruments (which has triggered some pride) give way to a swelling passion simply to worship! We are finding a balance ... without sacrificing the passion!

I just wonder that if at some point it often ceased to be about pleasing Jesus and more about pleasing conscience. I wonder if at some point it became more about the idea of you do it because thats how you do it, rather than we do this because we genuinly believe that God will be honored.

Crap. I had more things to write. But my baby's screaming and I"ve got to go.

there is great irony in your blog Ry. You are so passionate about believers being able to worship in a manner that is pleasing to God that you excuse the little thing called a stumbling block. There is a need for great balance and for us to be able to offer our lives, will and soul over to the Lord in a fashion and environment that deems acceptance and IS what the Lord would want. The irony is, that in your passion for this area... you, intern have probably put off other christian reader by your tone and choice of words (by that I mean cuss words). Don't you think someone who is a follower of Christ and is passionate about honoring him, would be more selective and elloqunt in getting their point across as to not cause their brothers to stumble?

I agree, there are many Church of Christers that are in bondage, but just ecause they are church of christ, that doesn't automattically put them in bondage. I go to a non-denominational Church that has instruments and find that even instruments in worship can cause bondage. There was actually a Sunday where church was cancelled becasue the administration could not find anyone to lead worship... WITH instruments. Not having them and singing accapella wasn't a choice because it would make everyone feel uncomfertable. (this administrator was Church of Christ too) There is a senior hiking trip that they take every summer. The kind where you take the bare min. And they lug up a guitar like 1,000 feet or so because they need it for worship times. Instruments CAN become a crutch. That's why I said it takes balance. As far as I can tell, Renevotus (sp?) is handeling this with great care. Teaching/Learning how to truely worship... no matter the acompanyment, place... expression IS what God wants from us. Always. Not just Sundays. I am so proud of yall for teaching this and understanding this... keep up the good work!

One last point. In your attempt to search after God you have found exceptional meaning and value in prayer and "free" worship. Please, however, do not become so arogant as to think that the traditional c of c'ers had any less desire to search after the almighty, although they chose to do so by stressing bible study and knowedge of Gods "will" for their churches and worship. I agree that there are many things that are neglected or overemphisised. BUT THIS IS THE LESSON, that searching soley after bible study and Gods "thoughts" on everything from how many songs to be lead to wether or not to have kitchens neglected part of the great things God has for his people. I pray to God that searching after worship, inclusion, and the sprit will not become the crippling overemphisis that legalism became for the previous generation of c of c'ers.

The Pharisees set up walls (man made) around the Law so that they would not break the law. THIS IS WRONG but the intent is increadably admirable. TO LOVE GODS LAW SO MUCH YOU WOULD GIVE UP FREEDOMS TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU WOULD NOT POSSIBLY OR ACCEDENTALLY BREAK GODS LAW. Let us also be careful that our zellousness for doing Gods will does not lead us into causing stumbling blocks for our brothers, like the Pharisees did.

sorry we wrote so much and we are praying and very supportive of your work in reachin the lost!

Love and admiration,
Luke and Kara Deal

So much to say, so little energy to write (Saturdays are very busy at work and my feet hurt).
Concerning the whole stumbling block thing I won't go into great detail. I've always had an issue with the stumbling block theology. It seems to me that this philosophy is often used by people to tell others to stop doing something they don't like. A stumbling block is something that leads others to sin. And there are very few things that truly cause another to sin because of your actions. The manner in which it is used in Scripture is not as liberal as we have often chosen to use it. You choose to sin 'cause you choose to sin. Blame is easier, but not always more righteous. Anway, I won't say more on that. I've just got lots of strong opinions about it.

Bondage...virtualy anything can cause bondage. Human beings are great at taking pure and wonderful things and then perverting them into chains of bondage. This includes the wonderful benefits of accapella worship, or instraments, or sex, or...you name it. It's there and it's dangerous and it's a battle. I am proud to be at a church that tries to find the value in both acappella and instramental worship styles.

I don't want to be arrogant. And I want to reiterate that this is all just my point of view, my opinions, and based on my experiences. It would be very ignorant of me to claim my feelings as anything more than just that. With that said, I will boldly say that I think that a large majority of CofCers don't seek wholeheartedly after what worshiping in Spirit and Truth really means. I think that alot of people are more happy to make other people happy, to not cause others to stumble (whatever that means). I would say that alot of CofC Sunday worship times are quite dead. I'm not saying that you need to be jumping up and down for 'real' worship (whatever that is) to happen, it's just that our worship in the past has required nothing of us. It's not about music, it's about purposfulness behind our worship.

Pharisees...I don't see anyone in Scripture honoring them for their attempts. I could be wrong (I'm wrong 90% of the time) but I think every single time a Pharisee is confronted they are rebuked for their attempts. We may try to find the good in what they were doing, and this may even be vaulable. But Jesus seemed to prefer to call them out on their righteousness. We can try to find the good in them, but it may be more valuable to do something else.

I value your opinion Kara and I love a good dialoge. In fact, I'm so out of the loop that I don't get to have these kinds of converations much anymore. It's probably for the best 'cause I enjoy them too much and I am not good enough at them to engage in them often.

I love the history of the CofC. I am very reactionary and I realize this. I am bitter in some ways. And I greatly desire more from the CofC. I pray that God uses people to do that...to take them to the next level...I'm just not that person (or at least not yet).

please, oh, please Ry. Let me know htat you heard us correctly. We were in NO way trying to attack you! We were just saying that the call of BALANCE is so easy for us to over look while we look back on our history of church ans form our future church.

At the core of what we were trying to say was that JEsus calls us to be servants not only looking to our own interest, but to the interest of others. And in Humility considering others better than ourselves.

This was NOT a condimnation. Just wanted to express our views too!


Lovies, Luke and Kara Deal

No worries.
Venting+my inability to use tact+late nights=potential for misunderstanding and hurt feelings.

I'm not so good with tact sometimes. So don't let my forwardness sound angry or hurt...though I just might punch you in the mouth if I ever see you again...just kidding. I might let you hold my baby though. How about that?

Speaking now as a former youth minister to BOTH Ryan and Kara, I realize that I missed an important teaching point out of 1 Corinthians 8:9, when Saint Paul the Apostle said, "Be careful that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak." The Greek word for "stumble" does not deal with conscience; it deals with personal faith. The question is not "Will this OFFEND the weaker brother?" Paul's question is, "Will me exercising this freedom cause my weaker brother to lose their faith in Jesus?"

Good conversation!

kaydub - I'm glad you brought up the point about the stumbling block - I was thinking that as I was reading the earlier comments.

If someone accuses me of "causing them to stumble" that, in itself, probably means that I'm not doing so - most people who will lose their faith because of something won't start quoting scriptures to me. And it doesn't count as losing the faith if they just go to a different church!

I was talking with someone else about this issue a little bit ago and I made the observation that even in instrumental churches they have "worship wars" over whether or not to use just the piano or to have a whole praise band. The issue of how we worship seems to be more important to most people than the issue of who we worship.

One of the best comments I've heard on this issue: the Bible clearly and specifically prohibits things that God doesn't want us to do; the Bible never clearly or specifically prohibits intsrumental worship or acappela worship. In fact, the instruction in the Bible for worship cover the topics of being condiderate, having a right relationship to the truth and the Spirit, being intelligable to non-believers, not neglecting mercy and compassion, being orderly, being communal . . . you get the idea.

Having said all of that, the use of instruments in worship is not a "hill" that I would die defending (at least not at this point). I asked my friend in the aforementioned conversation, why we should think about using intstruments, what would it add to the worship experience, would it allow people to worship better (or at all) than acappella. If it will make the difference between someone being able to worship God, then I will defend either acappella or instruments, not because of the practice, but because of the purpose.

Ramble-ramble-ramble

among the leadership team at Renovatus we have had long and healthy discussion about this topic.
Jessica and I were adamant that we did not and must not nix instraments. The reasoning wasn't because we felt like we needed a guitar to better worship God. No, I fully disagree with that.
Here was our beef:
We are planting a church for the unchurched. For people who have never been able to connect to church before. They are people who have been looked over for whatever reason. My conscience was hurt when I thought of the idea of calling these new people to my bagage. Even worse....we are calling these people to relationship with Jesus. Thats a big deal. I did not want part of our conversion process, whether verbally or implied, to teach that certain things are wrong (that in reality are not wrong in my belief). For me it became a very real and potential stumbling block! These people are sick of religion, of rules, of being told what to do...so lets save the commands of Jesus that we teach them to be the true and important ones.
I'm not expressing myself well here, but I hope the idea is understood. In my opinion say or implying that instraments are wrong becomes a problem when starting a new church. What happens when one of our first newbies wants to know if he/she can edify the body and worship God with their piano? I'd have to give some lame excuse about not wanting to cause life long Christians to stumble or something...doesn't work in my mind.
peace

I agree. Our church baggage is just that. Our church baggage. It shouldn't have to be explained and understood to a newbee... but sooner or later, that newbee will have their own church baggage that they'll have to explain to one of their newbee's. It's just the way it works, and God (only God could set it up like this too) is some how, inspite of all of our humaness... glorified in the end because people are coming to Him. People are finding relationship with Him. People are worshiping Him. People are talking to Him. And people are reading about Him.

Isn't He cool like that?

Side note. I just figured out who kaydub is! It's totally cracking me up too! The Pastor I work for is called C-dub by the kids around here! K.W. C.W. It's funny stuff man!

Ry, I can't WAIT to get my hands on that baby! Give the wife a huge hug for me too! AND your in-laws! AND your parents! Ok, go ahead and hug all of the Portland/Vancouver metropolitian area for me! I am SUPER northwest sick these days!

Lovies~KK

It's America... Right? Even if you didn't have freedom in Christ, you still have freedom of speech.

I almost hate to respond to this for fear that I might be thrown into some camp which I don't belong.

"I'm telling you to love your enemies. Let them bring out the best in you, not the worst. When someone gives you a hard time, respond with the energies of prayer...

Go to your closet!

I'll not shout AMEN. I don't think this post was some type of big tent revival. However, I ask, now what?

Do we realize "they're" [cofcers] lost and let them fry in hell like a piece of sausage?

or

Do we realize they need to see Jesus too and meet with them in the late night and tell them the story of grace and redemption.

"You're a respected teacher of Israel and you don't know these basics?"

I could be wrong, but weren't the Jews suppose to be the chosen people to proclaim God's salvation to the world? Souldn't their message been,

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it."
Yet, in the late night, Jesus met with this Pharisee and shared with him the simple truth that God loves the World and wants to save it.

Now my personal thought. I have a hard time condemning things or rather people today. Christ came to save... What is my message to the world as His slave? "Jesus wants to save you. Let go and let God. Let His grace rescue you." What a tought message to communicate. Especially to people who have gone to "church" all their life. They should know, but they don't.

They're people who don't know the Amazing Power of Grace. People who are lost in religious shadows and not the shadow of the cross of redemption. People angry. Swelling with pride. Selfish. Hostle. Confused. Afraid.

You and I have a responsiblilty... Make no mistake.

Take these hands
Teach them what to carry
Take these hands
Don't make a fist
Take this mouth
So quick to criticise
Take this mouth
Give it a Kiss"
-Bono

I like that... Give it a kiss.
Peace.

i see the point you are getting at here . . . it is so hard to grow up in this culture of the cofc and then choose what to let go of, what to hold on to, and if we even want to be a part of this community any longer when we come into our own and adults. right now, i chose to step out for a while and regroup. looking in from the outside, it is so much easier to see the "forest through the trees" or whatever . . . it's hard to see our leaders, teachers, parents, mentors, friends, peers, etc become divided over issues that (in our generation) seem like non-issues. but i think the spirit behind it is the real issue . . .
i remember growing up with the idea that god was this guy (i don't even believe god has a gender anymore really) sitting up there pulling his hair out saying things like "stop speaking in tongues! stop strumming that guitar! i said only ONE CUP and you'd better BREAK that bread EVERY SUNDAY!!!"
more and more i've come to know god as the one who has come to step into our brokenness (and petty differences) and redeem them, speak new life into them, and ressurect us all to a new, abundant life.
all of this fighting is only delaying our full participation in the resurrection life.

how do we get beyond this?

i think the book "a new kind of christian" by brian mcclaren starts a great conversation of this very topic . . . how do we get passed our divisions and start living as a true community of christ followers?

thanks for these thoughts rizzle fo' shizzle.

Each of you have said something worthy of note. If people have a problem, on any side of an issue like this, I'd be happy to discuss it with them and try to bring understanding. Even if one openion is right and the other wrong, our fellowship should not suffer from such things. Should the body of Christ be broken over our openions?

I find it ironic, I don't find biblical president for people from one congregation looking down on another. That goes both ways. I thought the C of C believed in the autonomy of congregations. Beyond that, I can't ever remember going to a church that didn't have something I didn't see in scripture or that wasn't lacking something I did see. When I've talked to them, however, the response reveals that all of them, so far, believe that their failings are matters of taste, while, oftentimes, the failings of others are matters of salvation or at least of sin.

God is God. If any judgement comes upon us let it be his. May those who bring division find that unity is inescapable. May those who seek unity, find it in this life as well as the next. May all of us be forgiven our failings and may God use those failings for the sake of salvation.

I find it hard to comment on this subject for fear of being misunderstood, but here it goes....

Instrumental music is not a salvation issue! God does not sit up in heaven and condem someone to hell because they worship with a guitar or a piano. He does not look down and judge someones heart of worship by the accompaniment they chose to express it in. God desires and looks at the heart, not the style of worship! Plus i would like to state that worship is not restricted to church services, worship is your life! Your worship to God includes the services you attend but is by no means concluded by the end of that said time. Worship is how you live your life and how you bring glory to God and encouragement to your brothers. I would also like to say that I think that God would be and is dissapointed with the fact that we choose to disfellowship and reject our brothers in Christ over something that is not related to salvation. I believe that we in the c of c sometimes allow satan to distract and divide us over something as unimportant as a guitar or a piano. He has used this small issue of personal preference to distract us from the real issue and job at hand which is the proclamation of his gospel and the salvation of his lost children. what would the faith look like if we stopped debating miniscule issues and focused on how to save people and as a community and family focused on getting out there in the world expressing his love. how would the world look if we could instead of throwing stones at eachother fully fix our eyes on Jesus and fulfill his purpose. I pray daily for us as christians to focus on the salvation and not allow satan to distract us and waste our time debating something that cannot save. we should rally together to love and spread Gods word. please dont misunderstand this as saying that we do not focus on those things but how much more time would we have if we could just drop the insignifacant? in the end God will be the judge and we do not have the right to lay judgement on someone and condem them where God had not. and as far as i'm conserned God does not condem worship of him through insterments. all I am trying to say here is that God looks at the heart and we cannot say what people have in there heart and should leave it up to God. let God be God and stay out of his way, he is perfectlly capable of doing his job, we are not! I think that we do care about the lost and do spend time discussing how to reach them but let us not sepperate Gods children, let us become the family he truly intended us to be. let us not judge what God has not. He is so wonderful and loves us so much let us show that to his people and those who are lost. lets be united in love and not allow satan to distract us and devide us.
wow..... thats alot more then i thought i would say, please dont understand me, your worship is between you and God, its in spirit and in truth and as long as your heart is right we cannot judge. if you worship in spirit and truth with music or you worship in spirit and truth without music is your choice, i just pray that you do worship. God derserves so much more then we give him and so much more credit! live your live in all aspects as a worship to him!
May God bless you all!!

I honestly didn't think that people would take time to read this long blog. I've enjoyed the discussion from kaydub to kk to anonymous (Jillian Graham). Thanks.

I've come to decide that it's a combination of things. For some (in my belief a very small group) it is a theological problem. For most I believe it's a cultural problem. For a few it's a pride issue, they refuse to think with open minds 'cause that would mean they were wrong.
I'm sure there were other things that affect the issue, but I'm pretty sure that it comes down to one of those three.
Disagree? Cool. I enjoy the discussion.
Agree? Cool, lets worship God in Spirit and Truth together.
Thanks for the discussion everybody.
peace out.