http://42daiye.blogspot.com /2006/09/turn-me-loose.html

i think the lack of commenting comes from the capitalist agenda. they are out to get us.

Strange, that link isn't working for me. But I think I know the post you're referring to.

I didn't respond to that post for a few reasons (none of which I will get into here). Maybe someday you'll be back in the 'couve and we can have some honest conversation about it.

I think that a lot of people say that there are many ways to God, and yet have no idea what that means or why that can be true. I think that many other people say that Jesus is the only way, and yet are not willing to accept what this means.

In a month or so I will be sharing at Renovatus in our "what I believe" series about this very topic. What do I believe about Jesus and God? Do I believe he is the only way? Why? Why not?

I love that at we are beginning to create a church culture where it's ok to talk about unbelief. We're even getting to a point where we will let people who do not believe be a part of our community! Fancy that. In fact I would love if I could have someone come share that week at Renovatus about their unbelief. I'm actually praying for that person to rise to the surface. It's not because I want to debate, nor do I want to make my opinion look more appealing. I think it would be beautiful to communicate to the community that we are all in different spots. And thats ok. Also I think that it would challenge those at church to really evaluate what they believe. Often we all pat ourselves on the back by repeating doctrines, verses, quotes, or whatever to each other that make us feel like we've got the right answers and we've got those answers down perfectly. I think thats how a culture can exist for so long that says that instrumental music is wrong. I think thats how a culture can exist for so long that only feeds itself while ignoring the hurting community outside. We'll talk about our "evangelistic efforts" and our "neighbor" and all that in such a way that makes us all believe that we're living like Christ. When in fact we're not even looking at his life. Blah blah blah. I've written enough and I'm not even sure what I'm responding to.

I hope to hear from more people about JC and what lines he draws or doesn't draw in your current belief system.

Thanks for your honesty arwen.

Good luck finding someone to do that. And I really mean that. Just the thought of partaking in a real conversation like that scares me... not for any negative reasons, but... I think you know. It's a really good idea though. It would be really interesting, but... if it were me on the other side, I would feel like the "negative" example, you know? And again, not because of anything that you or the collective did, just knowing that what I think and feel is the opposite of what everyone else is thinking. Knowing that in that crowd, there are now people who feel sorry for me or just don't like be because of it, wether they do it to my face or not... Letting non-believers in your community makes me happy. That is what should be going on because then it actually is about community and not about who believes what and who's right and whose wrong. That's how connections and new findings are made. Good show, Ryan. Good show.

hmmmmm.... i sort of think that jesus is the only way to god. i believe that anyone born since jesus' ministry can only get to god through him, john 14:6 & 7 says "jesus answered {he was answering thomas' question about the way to go} 'i am the way and the truth and the life. no one comes to the father except through me. if you really knoew me, you would know my father as well. from now on you do know him and have seen him.'"

however, there were MANY godly men, who i believe are with god now, who lived before jesus. i mean, countless men from the old testament whose stories were told, as well as men like zechariah who most likely died before jesus began his ministry.

i think there is a whole space/time continueum going on. like, it's all just one continuing cycle, and even though say, david, wasn't babtised into the burial and resurrection of jesus that we know today, i think he kind of is, anyway. because he chose to follow god, as god aked him to, at the time. when he sinned, he repented, he loved god, he pronounced god publicly, all that stuff.

so yes and no is as close as i can come. today, yes. i beleive that jesus is the only way. because he said so.

I am going to start with quoting Arwen.

"just knowing that what I think and feel is the opposite of what everyone else is thinking. Knowing that in that crowd, there are now people who feel sorry for me or just don't like be because of it, wether they do it to my face or not..."

That's how I feel everyday, as a Christian in the 'world'. Like when I publicly claim that I am a Christian to... for lack of a better example, the people at the DMV. I don't out right say that I'm a Christian, but I do tell others that I am a Children's minister at a church, and then people 'look' at me. There are people that feel sorry for me and others that don't like me, just because I claim Jesus as my Savior and chose to live life His way, not my own. So I can relate to Arwen feeling uncomfertable... if she were in that setting. It's a setting I live with! It's just a part of being a Christian, to live in the world, and not to live like it!

And to answer your question Ryan. I am with RM. I believe that Jesuse IS the only way to God. There was a time, when I tried to make a gray area. I had so many friends, good people friends who were Mormans, and it made me so sad to think about not being with them in heaven. It didn't make sence to me, they were good, and they were just doing what they had been taught. Heck, I was just doing what I had been taught. It really made me search out what I believed and why (I also went to an Adventist School, that helped the searching part too).

But, now I believe that JEsus is the only way. And I believe it because I've read it and came to my own conclusion, not because someont told me to believe it!

TA-DA! Longest comment EVER!

I think thats it exactly Kara. I think that many Christians claim that Jesus is the only way and yet when it comes down to it they are not willing to accept what that implies. If Jesus is the only way that means that people are going to hell right? On the flip side however throughout the Bible jesus is generally much more gracious than any of the religious people, even his own followers...it's just his just nature that that must be wrestled with I guess.

yeah! I know a lot of people aren't willing to accept what it means for JEsus to be the only way, but I think what gets me through that is... God is tha judge. I don't have to worry about being the one to tell others that they are going to hell. That's his job and HE's the only one that will know. There is no way for us to know this now.

I am, however, VERY RESPONSIBLE in telling others about how to KNOW they will be in heaven. Someone could never accept Jesus and make it to heaven, but I'm not the judge (or Christians arent the judge) of that either! But is that a risk I want to take? NO! That's is why I have chosen Jesus as my Savior! He has given up so much for me, it's the least I can do to give my life to him!

Love you Ry! Gald to know another brother as passionate about this stuff as I. Hug Jess and that baby for me! Your mom and dad TOO!

this is a seriously hard one . . . do i believe jesus is the only way to god?

well, if you believe in jesus then you have to believe everything he said and he said that he was the only way. but at the same time (classic argument alert!), what about those people who live in the bush or whatever and NEVER hear about jesus? i don't think god would punish them for never even having a chance to hear . . . doesn't the bible say something about the fact that we are judged based on what we know?

i don't want to believe that there are billions of people in the world who are ultimately screwed. i just can't handle that.

i'm not ready to back that one up yet and here's why: because of what i know about the character of christ - it just doens't make sense that a loving compassionate being like that could suddenly turn vindictive like that at the "end times." it's like saying all those crazy conservative republican politician pat roberts freaks were right all along.

garrrr, why did i choose to make this comment when i didn't have a clear idea of what i was going to say?

But doesn't our theology that says that one can only come to God by way of Jesus, by its nature say that there is absolutly no other way? If we say that those who have never heard are exempt, aren't we saying that the best evangelsim is to keep our mouths shut? What about in Romans when Paul talks about "how can they believe unless they have heard? And how can they hear unless someone tells them?"

But after saying all that I think that it is an undefinable (or is it indefinable?) area. I think of times before the sacraficial system was set up and it was real weird. What I mean is that there was this dude Melchizidickie or something like and and he was a priest of God. And there was Abram who followed God, but there were no writings or systems or anything. They were followers of God in some strange and odd form that does not resmeble anything that we have now. In whatever form that God communicated to them in they believed. I don't know much about all this except that it seems that maybe everybody has a choice to choose YHWH or other gods. YHWH might look different in different situations, but he is still the true God. So in some way they do believe in Jesus right? Maybe? I'm not really sure, but I think that people can follow Jesus/God without knowing the man Jesus. Maybe not, but that would mean that everybody has a choice (as in Romans 1) to believe in the God/Jesus thing, though it looks different depending on their place in history/geography/etc.

I read a cool quote today that said that hell is filled with forgiven people. At first I was like "what?" and then I was like "oh." Isn't it interesting that hell is really filled with forgiven people (Christ died for all right?), but they are people who would not accept his forgiveness. I think it's cool 'cause it makes me think that only those who truly reject Christ/YHWH, those who choose it, do not get to be with him for eternity. I think that CS Lewis wrote about this in the Great Divorce, but I don't really remember.

I'm going to stop writing now 'cause I'm just rambling. I think it's time for a new post.

all i can focus on is "Melchizidickie". lol

I came here from your link on "Life".
I'm pretty sure that it is the. best. blog. ever.
I just want you to know that I have not forgotten about the Exodus video. You said one week. And that, my friend, is tomorrow.

I don't believe we get to be the judge of others faiths or beliefs. My religion is strong, and it's right for me and my family. Does that mean it's right for you and yours? not necessarily. KK, I feel you are way off base, but I won't judge you for it. All I can ask for is the same from you.

Ryan, I do believe salvation through Jesus Christ is the only way to God. They are one in purpose, and I live a Christ-centered life. Does that mean I don't make mistakes? Of course not. Does it make me grateful for the gift of repentance and the great sacrifice Christ made for each one of us that we may one day be reunited with Him in all His glory forever? Absolutely.

From what I understand, you are starting your own church. And I respect that and wish you all the best.

And Tabitha, I don't believe learning about God ends when we die. Missionary work continues even then, so I believe others will be given the opportunity to know and accept Christ as their Savior. At least, that is our faith and belief and it brings me comfort.

But by its very nature don't most religions say something about the religion of others whether you want it to or not? If you hold to the christian beliefs you either must disagree with Jesus when he says that nobody gets to God except through him, or you must agree with him and then figure out what that looks like and how to deal with it. Right?
I would like to say more but my sons flippin' out. I'll be back...maybe

I'm way off base by saying the same thing you said? That we aren't the judge. God is! Interesting.

lol. thats funny. you guys said the exact same thing! but evidently youre wrong kk- way wrong. :)

Ok everybody, lets not get all up in arms. I like the conversation here, but lets leave the mothers out of this (anchorman anybody?).
Seriously little missy thanks for sharing.I think everybody has something valuable to add even though they don't all agree. I do however get bothered when people talk about not judging and all that crap. Seriously we make judgements every day about everyone. We can't help but make judgements, it's life, it's being human. I don't think its wrong for me to believe that what I think is right and what you believe is wrong. Thats the nature of thinking or believing something isn't it. The problem though, is when people start being jerks about it. I try to love all people. I try to be nice to all people. But I don't agree with them all, in fact I think most people are wrong about many things (as am I, I'm sure). I can think that you're very wrong but still have healthy and open conversation. Jesus thought people were wrong. He thought that they made stupid choices...but he loved them anyway and treated them with respect. Thats what being Christlike is all about: loving people even when you have reason maybe not to. I don't believe that being like christ has anything to do with being nonjudgemental.

Ment no harm. Just a little light hearted perspective.

sorry, KK, in my rush to comment I must have looked over your "i'm not the judge" comment. I was merely responding to your first comment. My apologies. And Ryan, I do agree that we make judgements every day. I just disagree when someone speaks out against a particular religion. I won't do it, and I get offended when others do.

I'm not up in arms. I'm not upset. And KK, my apologies to you for missing the second comment you made. btw, it's spelled MORMONS, best of luck to you and your children's ministry. I'm sure you'll do great.

little miss (sorry Ry for using your blog to do my own blogging) ~ It's all gravy baby. I appologize for bing so spastic in my writing (and spelling). I am just glad that at the end of the day we can all be friends.

And I was wrong to single out Mormons. I wasn't trying tojust single out Mormons. Even though they are the only one's I mentioned. I have no beef with Mormons. I have no beef with anyone really!

Thanks for your understanding, and thanks Ryan for such a great thought provoking blog.

In Jesus name, Amen.

I believe that it's Moreman if I'm not mistaken.

look, were all friends...i think michael w smith sums it all up... friends are friends forever if the lords the lord of them....

mmmm.... beef.

was there really a point to me making that anonymous? No. You all know it's me. And if you didn't, now you do and forever know that I love beef.

Nevermind. Ryan, thanks for the laugh. Enjoy your blog.

It is certainly...thought provoking.

Little Missy, I'm glad that you read my blog. I wonder, however, how long you've been a reader for. The reason I wonder this is because part of what I enjoy is finding humor in many things, yes, even Christianity. They way I see it, the God who created the zebra, giraffe, and dare I say even our sense of humor enjoys some of our sarcasm or joking or silliness. I know all about LDS, I know how to spell Mormon, I even own and have read my own copy of the Pearl of Great price, the book of mormon, the D&C, and all that jazz. I thought it was funny to spell Mormon "More-man". It's a funny play on words I thought...i must have been wrong. Sorry for offending you in some way...but may I suggest that you try to read my blogs more lightheartedly (if you choose to read again).
peace,
ryan