Dude.

I've actually been thinking a lot lately about how I am different than I used to be. I've really been wanting to make sure that I'm real but in the process have redefined what that means and I don't like it. Instead of being "me" I've been "cool" by my own definition and have denied the true Jesus way of living. I found myself being uncomfortable with "too much Jesus talk". You see I've got it down. I have all the right words and I can do all the right things but it wasn't generated from a spring welling up inside me...
I'm trying to allow God to transform me and redefine what being "raw" might look like.

are there multiple mars hill churches?? because my friend here is the worship leader at marrs hill, that is a brand new church plant... im assuming youre talking about one in portland or something...interesting.

jesus may not have worn a tie but he did wear a blue sash.

Preach on, Ry

There's mars hill bible church
in Michagan where Rob Bell is the preacher (author of Velvet Elvis, best book ever). Then there is mars hill churchin Seattle. Both are two of the fastest growing churches in the States and both are pretty sweet.
Apperently it's the cool thing to name your church mars hill.

so you are saying that your way is the right way way? If so, isn't that the same thing as the southern churches, only to the opposite extreme?

your way is fitted to your culture, who's to say that the southern churches aren't fitted to their culture? Just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it wrong, or take away the glory it brings to God. Inspite of the southerners attentding them. Just like your church brings glory to God inspite of you.

Actually you prove my point just perfectly oh my dearest anonymous. Southern churches do fit...IN THE SOUTH. It's when we start planting southern churchs for people who aren't southern. It's when we call people to live like Jesus and then couple christian living with the American definition of it. You prove my point exactly. "My" way of doing church is completely inappropriate for Lisbon, Portugal or for many other places. But the way I experience church right now is very healthy, I believe, for an unreached segment within Vancouver, WA.
And again, anonymous, like I said in my post, I can rejoice that the good news is being shared even if it's in a way I don't agree with. It doesn't mean that I'm going to keep silent about the manner in which they proclaim it. I'm happy that they're talking about Jesus I just wish that the churches better represented the people that it's supposed to reach. Thats all.

Oh, and let me make this clear to all, it has nothing to do with the south. That was just my experience. I love the south with its good bbq, its oil that I drive my car with, my friends Jonathan and Brian...umm...and Walmart. Thanks for Walmart. The South is just an easy target...just like Canada.

I would challenge you, anonymous, to reread my post. I will do the same to make sure that I'm communicating clearly enough. Because I think that you're sorely misunderstanding my point. But thank you for your honesty. Please give a rebuttal to my comments, we've all got so much to learn from eachtoher...or even despite eachother.

well, well. Your wit and charm amaze me. It really does make me think happy thoughts about Jesus. Your church is a lucky church.

So in this unreached segment of Vancouver, WA how may have you caught with that wit and charm?

I agree that I helped you prove your point. and I agree that maybe I miss understood your point, via your delivery. However, I do have a distate for those who feel their way is better or look down on anothers way of worship because of how they- how did you put it? - represent Jesus. Jesus IS NOT bound by culture. And He is immutable. So if an American church is planted in bolivia, yet some how people still recieve the message... HOW CAN THAT BE WRONG? And because the people in Bolivia recieve the message, sooner or later they will find a way, through the awesomeness of God, to help make it relate to the Bolivian people. Better than any American could.

So, back to MY point of your distaste for the way the south represents Jesus. Go right a head and disagree with it. but know that the line you walk and talk is very close to that of which you disagree with.

I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone by my comments or my post itself. I tend to do that a lot and I know that I need to be more cautious.
Please know that I do love churches in the South. I used Tulia, TX as an example in my post but the reality is that I loved the little church I was a part of in Tulia...anyway...
But let my try to tactfully react to some of your statements anonymous. I will try to keep myself from using my sarcasm that I often comment with. I realize that sarcasm can be very dangerous and hurtful but sadly, often my sense of humor wins out over my sense of kindness.
You said "how can that be wrong", well I'm not sure right and wrong are the best words to use. Good and better might be more appropriate. If God can speak out of an ass in the Bible (KJ version) then he can reach people through an irrelevant church. And for that of course I rejoice! It's good, it's great, it's wonderful that people come to know Jesus through churches that in many ways reject those peoples cultures. But how much better would it be, how much more effective could it be if those same churches chose to give up their own man made christian culture in favor of a new blend of Christianity and Bolivian culture. One in which the good and beautiful things of that culture are embraced and used to point to Jesus. It gets me excited to think about it. This shouldn't be a post for us to be arguing about, this would be a revolution. The churches in Germany were struggling (I don't know if they are now or not), they were not looking healthy, and they did not look like or represent the culture that they were reaching out to. How exciting would it be for us to plant new church (or transform existing churches) that are relevant to the communities that they're sent to! It would be a revolution. It would change the world! It gets my heart racing and my fingers all tingly.
So often we consciously or subconsciously choose to sacrifice the unchurch for the churched. Christians like to do church ________ way so thats the way we do it. If the unchurched want to be a part of us then they'll conform to our ways of doing things. But what if we changed our ways and looked to the unchurched first. What if we looked at the unchurched through Jesus painted glasses, what they were doing in life, what they valued, who they looked up to, what they did with their free time, what they desired for their futures, what principles they lived. We don't do away with theology and Scripture, but rather we interpret it within light of their understanding of life. Isn't that what we've done in America? In the South? In the NW?
I do not claim in anyway to live it out perfectly. I'm more screwed up in how I do church than I like to admit. But I do believe that this idea of putting the unchurched first should/will change the way churches look on Sunday mornings, the way churches disciple, the way Christians live out their faith during the week...it's simple and basic and something we all know...but we seem to have a hard time living it out. And that is why I believe we have so many churches all the way from Washington to Germany that do not represent the cultures in which they exist.
No Jesus is not bound by culture!!! What an amazing thing! So lets stop selling Jesus to the world packaged in a one size fits all mold. Lets allow Jesus to be relevent to all cultures everywhere free of our man made traditions that fit the culture in which we thrive. Jesus connects to all men everywhere and we only get in the way when we tag onto the Christ our own preferences.
I'd love for you to respond again. As iron sharpens iron right? Challenge me, make me think. Question my motives, my language, my theology. Help me to learn, and I hope I can do the same for you.

Well, when you lay down the sarcasm and start really talking about Jesus and making Him the focus, instead of using your bias about churches and cultures - I agree, whole heartedly with you! I applaud you for taking the high road and not leting me bait you into an ego match. I appologize for my tone and wording in my previous post. I did, however mean to challenge your sarcasm. But the way in which I went about it... I'm not so proud of.

I agree that we need to be Jesus to others. I agree that as missionaries, we (amaricans, those sent over seas)have a huge responsibility to research, research, research, and adapt to a culture that we are sent to! How CAN we relate JEsus and their need for Him without understanding their needs? How and why do they need Jesus? We SHOULD figure out a way to do exactly what you are saying, and I too believe it is beginning to change.

However! Every church since the beginning of time has felt that they are doing it right. Your child's child will be complaining about how there is a lack of stucture in churches and will be looking to change the world too. I'm not sure that there is anything wrong with it! but it does seem to me, that you might have as closed minded an approach to this Jesus colored glasses/Jesus relavant to every culture (for lack of better terms) as those who are either apposed or those who don't get it.

That, my friend is the line I speak of. You have passion. THAT is amazing! but once passion seaps into pride, then we become like Saul.

And I may be reading you all wrong! But I must admit, the sarcasm is a hard one to read through. It doesn't transend every culture, and therefore it makes it hard to see Jesus.

Well I guess we'll have to leave it as Ron Burgundy says "agree to disagree".
I believe you're still thinking that I'm saying I'm doing church the right way and you're doing it the wrong way. I don't know how many ways I can say that I don't think my way is right and others are wrong. So I won't worry about that anymore.
Every generation screws something up. One generation of parents discipline the children too harshly which leads to the next generation not punishing at all, etc. etc. The next generation of churches will have our mistakes but I pray that we don't just make all the same mistakes that the previous churches made. That would be insanity. Yes we'll make mistakes but I hope that in our effort to further what the generation before us began we will do some things better than they did.
I think you're misusing the term close minded. If I call a bigot close minded I'm pointing at him and telling him that I disagree with the way he's living his life. Does that make me close minded? No, not at all. Maybe I'm being judgemental, but that is completely different...anyway, I digress. I won't waste anymore time trying to explain myself. I thought that we were much closer to agreement than we truly are. Apparently we are miles apart...and that is very much ok. May God bless you in your spiritual journey. Peace out annony.

and also, why is it in most blogs when someone disagrees they choose to post anonymously? i see it all the time . . . it happens on my blog too.

ok. so i have been thinking about what you are trying to say here and i think i have an example. a real-life happened-to-me example . . .

let me know if this is even close to the point you are trying to get at:

let's start by saying i am a crock wearing hippie. i am.

ok.

i live in the city. i go to a very urban church, filled with tattoos, dreadlocks, piercing, different colored hair, all age groups (yes, even older people with grey hair come to our church and feel accepted) and socioeconomic statuses (statusi? what's the plural of status?).

my mother lives in the suburbs. she goes to a suburban church. filled with families, middle-aged and elderly people children and a verrrry few college or high school students.

she asked me to come to the women's retreat at her church with her. so i said, "ok, this crock-wearing hippie will go out of her comfort zone and go to this middle-aged women in the suburbs retreat and i will be open to learning from them."

the theme of the weekend was "Chocolate boutique." there were lots of things that appealed to the suburban, house wife type. chocolate, foot pampering, feelings sharing, chicken salads (i am a vegetarian), ice cream sundaes, espresso bar, card games, and singing. these ways of experiencing and doing faith really spoke to these women and helped them to see christ and the church better and to incorporate things they were learning into their lives. i witnessed it affect many women.

i, however, was largley unaffected. it just wasn't my culture (i know what you are trying to say goes across larger cultural borders, but this is just an example). soaking my feet, eating chocolate and singing a song (for real, they did this) about how the grace of god is like chocolate to my soul doesn't resonate with my culture. but it isn't a question of good or bad. it is a question of what works and speaks into people's lives and what doesn't.

a retreat like this wouldn't go over as well as it did if someone where to step in to the church where i attend and the culture that i live in. the ladies would enjoy the chocolate, but would laugh at the song about how the grace of god is like chocolate to their soul. it would be like taking a puzzle piece from one puzzle and trying to fit it into a completely differnt puzzle. it would be like taking americanized christianity into bolivia and trying to make it work. this is what i hear you saying.

BUT god is bigger than culture and societal preference. (this is also what i hear you saying). even though this retreat i went to didn't resonate with me the way it did with the other women (and i am not saying i am better than them in any way at all . . . this is not about judging right and wrong it is about descerning what works for who and what doesn't), i was still able to learn from it because christ was there. praise god!

but if this retreat were to be brought to the church i attend, it would have to be seriously revamped in order to be as effective as it was that weekend with those women.

and this tells me that jesus wasn't american. he wasn't bolivian. he isn't a crock-wearing hippie. he isn't a middle-aged suburban housewife. he is all those things. he fits all those things. he is god. and god is not defined by the lines we draw and the systems we create.

it is beautiful to watch him go into a culture and redeem it for himself. and sometimes we get in the way of that . . . if we stepped back and let him work, just think how much more effective he could be.

it works either way we do it. some ways just work more effectively.

is this what you are saying?

My feeling is anonymous doesn't know how to log in with the new blogger and forgot to sign their name the first time. That may not be true but I prefer to think that.
Thanks tabs, I think you should have writen this post.

Tabs, you have done a beautiful job of illustrating rizzle's point, and I thank you.

I am sorry I left you feeling as though you had to explain yourself to death. I just wanted to challenge you in some healthy perspective.

So tell me, in light of a needed subject change, what methods does your church use to reach out to it's community? What parts of your service are used to help osthers look outside of their current gathering?

Please, I covet your response. The church that I atend is so inward focused that it really makes me want to pinch some heads off. Some out of the box ideas would be very refreshing.

Sadly enough this is actually a tough question to answer. As a church body we try to use language that communicates with the unchurched (not referring to stories unless we tell them, giving page numbers in our bibles that we give out, etc.). We also are always communicating to the church that we aren't here to be self serving but to bless the world. At first it felt like that message fell on deaf ears but it seems to slowly be working its way through the church. It's exciting. Honestly I think (and I may be wrong) that the primary shift in thinking has to be that we exist to serve and bless the unchurched first and the churched second. So many churches spend all their time trying to take care of Christians and to keep/make them happy. Granted, I understand that we need to disciple and to take care of our own, but the balance should fall on the side of the unchurched (thats what I think).

In two weeks Jess and I will be starting a home community for people who don't have relationship with Jesus (or are new in their walk). It's going to be a community discussion about the Bible, about spirituality, and the like. We're pretty jazzed. I'm going to put some fliers up at Clark College to see if I can touch a few more people there.

With regards to Sunday morning I could give all sorts of ideas...not all of them are good, but we've done them anyway. But I think the hardest thing is to find creative and purposeful ways of living out that missional culturally appropriate stuff outside of Sundays. The reason its hard is because its lifestyle oriented and not structure oriented. I think that Imago has some good structure type stuff in place, but I believe that that comes out of a group of people who have been living it out for so long that structure was a natural next step. Renovatus doesn't have that structure much yet. I mean we serve at homeless shelters, we build houses in Mexico, we throw parties for our neighborhood no strings attached...but we're still learning as a community how to live it out as a lifestyle first. We've got a lot of unlearning to do first.

I don't know if I've said anything valuable here. It's definitely a work in progress. I envision so much more than we've yet to actuate, but we're getting there. I'm getting there...and hopefully once we get there we'll then be shooting somewhere even further.

Worship is like music: everyone has their own tastes, and not every type of music appeals to everyone. In fact, some music downright offends some people! And how often do people fall into the trap of judging a person by their taste in music? Pretty often, in my experience! Have you ever heard the car next to you at a stoplight blasting rap, so you slowly locked your door? To me, that's the same thing as judging the way someone worships.

Renovatus is perfect for me. The envoirnment seems to be designed exclusively to help me get closer to God. Other people having a good time and working on their own personal relationship with Christ is special too, but it doen't affect my experience. My Mom and brother are Catholics and VERY VERY strong in their faith. That type of worship didn't hold much for me personally, but it's amazing for my family among others.

I really really REALLY couldn't care less how other people worship (as long as it dosn't hurt anyone). When I meet someone who's worship makes no sence whatsoever to me, I praise them for finding a way to God that works for them. The onyl way one "style" of church would work for everyone would be if every person was exactly the same. I never think of my way of worship as "better" than anyone's - as long as they really believe in what they say. That's the goal of religion as I see it: to get closer to God. End of story. Period. Even if you join a cult, if it makes YOU have a CLOSER experience with GOD and makes YOU feel like YOU are worshiping in the way HE wants YOU too, cheers from me!